•HOME • TBC LATEST • TBC ARCHIVES • JOIN MILINET • MILINET ARCHIVES  CONTACT 


9 September 2011

RECAP "USS LIBERTY (AGTR-5)"-

DISCUSSION

The following RECAP is constructed with the ARTICLE prompting this discussion followed by the 10 GROUPS OF RESPONSES arranged in the order they were received and/or posted by MILINET. In the years since Liberty was attacked, two findings from the Admiral Moorer Commission--http://www.ussliberty.org/moorerfindings.htm--emerge to frame clearly this event in spite of attempts to obscure or purge this event from America's consciousness:
 
          1. That on June 8, 1967, after eight hours of aerial surveillance,
             Israel launched a two hour air and naval attack against
USS Liberty
             . . . 
inflicting 34 dead and 173 wounded American servicemen . . ..

          6. That fearing conflict with Israel, the White House deliberately prevented
              the U.S. Navy  from coming to the defense of
USS Liberty by recalling                  
             Sixth Fleet military rescue support while the ship was under attack . . .
             never before in 
American naval history has a rescue mission been cancelled
              when an American ship was under attack . . ..

For any past, present, or future member of the U. S. Armed Forces who continues to suffer from conflicted loyalties after reading the above and the RECAP, I suggest they read the personnel roster of the USS Liberty crew at, http://www.ussliberty.org/roster.htm and then visit those Americans in Arlington National Cemetery and other cemeteries where they have been buried away.


Semper Remembering USS Liberty,

Anthony F. Milavic
Major USMC (Ret.)


===============ARTICLE==========
7,000 miles for the USS Liberty http://galvestondailynews.com/story/251842

By Larry Toenjes
Special to The Daily News
Published August 20, 2011

I’m on my sailboat in Valetta, Malta, in the middle of the Mediterranean Sea, 
on my way to perform a memorial service for American servicemen killed in action almost 45 years ago.
With Texan crew members Joe and Sherrie Wagner, I’ve sailed 7,000 miles from Galveston. We’re going
1,000 miles more to the exactspot where Israeli forces perpetrated a ruthless, two-hour assault on the 
USS Liberty, killing 34 and injuring 174

Israel said it was a “tragic mistake.” The survivors said it was deliberate. Lifeboats were shot up and 
stretcher-bearers machine-gunned. The attack occurred in international waters off the coast of Egypt 
while the Liberty was monitoring communications during Israel’s Six Day War. Most Americans are 
unaware of that attack because the cover-up began even before the smoke had cleared, the wounded
cared for and the dead counted (see ussliberty.com)

The cover-up occurred because President Lyndon Baines Johnson did not want to embarrass Israel, 
thus alienating the powerful Israel lobby that would then pour money into his opponent’s campaign. 
The cover-up continues to this day, which is why I undertook this voyage. I’m planning to commemorate 
the victims as best I can and to support their shipmates, sons, daughters and widows (most of the 
mothers and fathers are now gone) in their demand for the investigation that never happened.

Congress never formally investigated the incident because members are intimidated by the pro-Israel lobby. 
That same lobby is picking up the travel expenses for 81 members of Congress to visit Israel this very month. 
Apparently, new members need to be oriented before voting on the appropriation that gives $8 million per day
to Israel. Refusal to participate in the trip would mark a member as unfriendly to Israel and the lobby would 
work to defeat him or her in their next election. Texas Congressman Blake Farenthold is among the 81.

Now that we’ve sailed across the Atlantic and halfway across the Mediterranean without any serious problems, 
there is one more obstacle. Israel has continued its practice of harassing Americans at sea. Survivors Joe Meadors 
of Corpus Christi and Jim Ennes, who wrote the first book about the attack, have been communicating with 
U.S. embassies in Tel Aviv and Cairo, trying to ensure the Israeli navy will leave me alone.The U.S. gives Israel
$3 billion a year, but then must plead with the country not to harass,injure, or kill innocent Americans!

I merely want to exercise my right as an American citizen to proceed to a point in international waters where 
a grave injustice was perpetrated against U.S. sailors and express my dismay that injustice is being extended 
by Congress’s timidity. Members of Congress never miss an opportunity to say to a U.S. service man or woman, 
“We thank you for your service!”  But their service is not praised if doing so would embarrass the state of Israel, 
the pro-Israel lobby or diminish campaign contributions.

Larry Toenjes lives in Clear Lake Shores. His progress can be followed at www.cnionline.org/followlarry

---------------------1st GROUP OF RESPONSES---------

29 August

MILINET: Resp "USS LIBERTY (AGTR-5)"

===================

I bought a book on this subject! But, I had decided for myself that the Israelis had attacked the Liberty deliberately just from reading all the comments by U.S. Marines on the subject over the years. You'd have to be blind to not have seen that American flag waving from that ship.. and of course the bastids weren't blind! They were sent transmissions begging them to stop killing everybody and they kept it up. They had circled the Liberty for 2 hours like vultures, not answering the captain's calls. They had been contacted in a friendly manner and without warning they started bombing and strafing the men on deck who were waving and smiling at what they thought were allies and friends. It was terrible what they did to those sailors, Marines and Corpsmen, it was a slaughter plain and simple. Johnson was a worthless POS for covering that up but then HE sent them there to be murdered... why? Why is it that nobody who knows these things is ever elected and is able to put things right? I really struggle with my opinions about Israel because of our Biblical history with them. We're supposed to protect Israel? It's a dilemma for me. I DO wish we'd stop sending our precious dollars to other countries including Israel... hell, we can't afford it anymore and they all hate our guts. Thanks a bunch for the article... I'll send it on!

VB

------------------2nd GROUP OF RESPONSES-------

30 August

MILINET: 2nd Resps (3) "USS LIBERTY (AGTR-5)"

===================

Re:  VB,

The Israelis don't "hate our guts". Go to Israel and find out. Americans are not slaughtered there nor are they singled out for criminal activity. This is crazy talk

SK

--------------------ANOTHER RESPONSE------

Anthony  This is the face-saving lie that just won't go away;  You may recall that you posted on MILNET my detailed coverage of the event, citing sources, players, etc., 4-5 years ago.  It's obvious to me that playing that tape again is about as futile as getting the MSM to 'fess up on what the overwhelming evidence tells us about the provenance of Indonesian citizen Sotero.  I won't go through all that again, but I will outline the major points.

Liberty was under U.S. State Department OPCON, not C6F, who messaged Liberty, asking where they were, why, what were they doing.

Liberty was positioned offshore in a position proximate to the master jet base from which all the raids lifting and proceeding on course to various targets in Egypt could be observed and tracked.

Liberty was passing this early warning information in near real time to the American Embassy in Cairo, which then passed it via their diplomatic contacts to the Egyptian military.

Israel was monitoring this traffic, and for several days -- communicating via diplomatic and military channels at the highest levels -- asked that Liberty cease its transmissions.  When Liberty continued giving these reports, the Israeli requests, then demands, then warnings, became increasingly strident.

Israeli aircraft losses were very heavy during this time, because the Egyptian air defenses -- forewarned of the incoming raids -- were always waiting with massed weapons in a high state of readiness.

Israel did not lose another aircraft to Egyptian air defenses -- after Liberty was taken 'off air' -- for the duration of the conflict.

One of the great ironies of this episode is that there was a very heavy population of U.S. defense contractors in-country at the time, providing direct hands-on support to the Israelis in keeping up their very high sortie rates, as well as an embedded population of U.S. military personnel assisting the Israelis.

Thus we have a situation in which the U.S. Department of Defense was helping the Israelis prosecute the war, while the U.S. Department of State was helping the Egyptians -- clearly a breakdown of communications, policy, strategy, direction (U-pic) at the Executive-Cabinet level -- a blunder that LBJ was not proud of, nor was he anxious to explain, thus the 'cover story' emerged (easy to do) and then went viral.

Last thoughts:  Take a moment to consider... why would the Israelis -- hard pressed by growing aircraft losses, and the need for more and more sorties to support their advancing ground forces -- waste their precious aircraft assets and ordnance in short supply to stage an alpha strike on a non-combatant ship flying the flag of its staunchest ally?  It defies logic.  You want answers?  Depose Johnson's CJCS or SECDEF or SEC STATE, or their deputies, if they're still around.  Or have an archivist dig up the White House phone logs for that period.  The Israelis were uncharacteristically silent about the matter. Always have been.  Still are.  Was there a call from LBJ to Begun after the event?  What was he promised (or threatened) to keep his mouth shut?

 Les 

-----------------ANOTHER RESPONSE-------

Les,

Since LIBERTY had NO Hebrew translators on board, please explain how she was able to monitor Israeli communications in real time.


Semper asking

Anthony F. Milavic
Major USMC (Ret.)

---------------3RD GROUP OF RESPONSES-------

1 September 2011

MILINET: 3rd Resps (4) "USS LIBERTY (AGTR-5)" 

==================

Les, you filled in the blanks and provided the most reasonable explanation to an equation that never added up.  There are no surprises the fingerprints of the State Department was on this. Thank you for the detail.

Spanky Hammond
LtCol  USMCR (Ret)

--------------------ANOTHER RESPONSE--------

Unhappy events tend to lead we Americans to ascribe conspiracies to those events--usually despite the facts of the issue.  There are still many who believe that Roosevelt knew about the Pearl Harbor attack in advance, that Churchill knew about the Coventry raid in advance and did nothing, that the CIA or FBI was responsible for the JFK assassination, and that the Israeli attack on the Liberty was intentional.  Facts be damned!!!

Facts: (1) The NSA files have been opened and are online: has Larry Toenjes looked at them? (2) The State Department has published the relevant correspondence and cable in Volume XIX of Foreign relations of the U.S. 1967 (released in 2004 and reviewed in the July 2004 Naval Institute Proceedings): has Toenjes looked at the book?  (3) one of the Hebrew linguists in the Navy EC-121 that was in the area at the time has made several statements and published corrections to some statements about the Liberty in the Wall Street Journal and elsewhere: has Toenjes looked at them or contacted him or heard/read the recordings/transcripts of the intercepts by the EC-121?  The answer to all three questions IS OBVIOUSLY NO!

 Rather, Toenjes repeats the inaccurate and long disprove conspiracy theories. 

 For example:

(1) lifeboats were shot up; by aircraft attacked bow on at several hundred miles per hour?  or by the PT boats?  Aircraft at that speed and angle could not have aimed at anything but the big gray hull.  No lifeboats were in the water.  Only uninflated liferafts and no one boarded the.

(2) most Americans were unaware of the attack because the cover-up began even before the smoke had cleared:  Check The New York Times the day after the attack! 

(3) Congress never formally investigated the incident: Actually the investigation of the attack (most now available to the public) included:

CIA  13 June and 21 June 1967
U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry  18 June 1967
President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board  18 July 1967
Joint Chiefs of Staff 9--20 June 1967
Senate Committee on Foreign Relations  12 June, 14 July, 26 July 1967
Senate Armed Services Committee  1 Feb 1968
House Appropriations Committee  April-May 1968
House Armed Service Committee 10 May 1971
National Security Agency  1981 (I don't have time to look up the specific dates of these hearings/investigations)
Senate Select Committee on Intelligence  1979 and 1981
House Armed Service Committee 1991 and 1992
All of these investigations concluded that the attack was a terrible mistake.

(4) the Liberty crew was "not praised": again, B.S.--Skipper McGonagle received the Medal of Honor (with front-page stories about the event in the NY Times and Washington Post the following day); many other awards were made for actions of the crew that day.

(5) the Ennis book is inundated with errors: He has the two carriers in the Mediterranean launching F-4 Phantoms with nuclear weapons--never happened and could not have happened; no release permission as asked by the TF or carrier commanders (I knew the TF commander and interviewed at length the skipper of the America--the late VADM Don Engen).  And, no U.S. Navy or Marine Corps Phantom was wired to carry nuclear weapons. 

The Liberty never communicated with the White House or SecDef; (a) there was no system in the ship capable of direct comms with either, and (b) the White House and SecDef comm logs show no communications with the Liberty.  The list of errors in the Ennis book goes on and on.

(6) with respect to the follow-on statements regarding real-time observation of the Israeli flights to the Pentagon or CinCEurope (or anyone), the Liberty comm logs show absolutely no transmissions to those commands.  Again, no Hebrew linguists were on board the Liberty and the Israeli fliers  were communicating (with each other and with controllers) in HEBREW... again, check the EC-121 material and the State Department's 1967 volume as well as the NSA material... or talk to an Israeli pilot!

 PLEASE ... STOP THIS CONSPIRACY B.S.  These "tales" do not stand up to the facts--that are now readily available.

 Norman 

----------------------ANOTHER RESPONSE-------------

I thought I had read most of the key explanations for this incredible incident but this essay is the first time I can recall reading a justification for the Israeli attack that actually made sense, e.g. we the US were feeding comprehensive operational information to the Egyptians on Israeli air attacks.  How such an incredible decision might have been made without thinking through its potential ramifications and how a fleet asset came to be used for that purpose are just a few of the questions that immediately come to mind.  Given the fact that Lyndon Johnson had a proclivity for "micro-management" and the enormous potential domestic political implications of such a decision on our relationship  with Israel, is it conceivable that anyone in the administration made such a decision without his specific approval?   I think not.   

Before sending this comment along, I went over the Wikipedia summaries of the Liberty incident.  The only place I could find a relevant report supportive of this plot was a "History of the Mossad" written by one Joseph Daichman who opined that the attack was precipitated because the Israelis feared the Russians would also intercept the Liberty elint reporting and feed it to the Eqyptians and/or the Syrians which might have a major impact on Israeli ongoing and planned operations.  This variation on the theme of our "unintentional" feeding the information to the Syrians and/or the Egyptians makes more sense.  It also could reasonably have been foreseen, given the extensive Soviet elint efforts.  Moreover, Dean Rusk, then SecState, was from the outset of this incident bluntly critical of the Israelis and SecDef McNamara twice shut down carrier aircraft from coming to the aid of the Liberty so all the "cognizant" high level players were far from disconnected from it.    

 On the issue of language being used, I believe that in more recent years Hebrew has been used but it is long standing SOP in the IDF that all operational traffic is recorded for among other things, to establish responsibility for tactical decisions.  You also discover that many of their recorded transcripts on this incident have blank segments

 PatG  

 -----------------ANOTHER RESPONSE-------------

The following two (2) EXTRACTS are from the below cited, "A REPORT." The entire document is accessed at: http://www.gtr5.com/evidence/warcrimes.pdf

A REPORT: 
War Crimes Committed 
Against U.S Military
Personell, June 8, 1967

Submitted to the Secretary of the Army in his Capacity as Executive Agent for the Secretary of Defense, June 8, 2005

EXTRACT #1

Writing in his memoirs, Richard Helms, the Director of Central Intelligence at thetime of the attack, explained that the Central Intelligence Agency undertook a “final” investigation after more evidence became available, and he offered the following information concerning the CIA’s final finding: 45

"Israeli authorities subsequently apologized for the incident, but few in Washington could believe that the ship had not been identified as an American naval vessel. Later, an interim intelligence memorandum concluded the attack was a mistake and not made in malice against the U.S. . . . I had no role in the board of inquiry that followed, or the board's finding that there could be no doubt that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty. I have yet to understand why it was felt necessary to attack this ship or who ordered the attack."

Director Helms was not the only administration official who remained convincedthat the attack was deliberate. In 1990, in his memoirs, Secretary of State Rusk observed: 46

"But I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. Their sustained attack to disable and sink Liberty precluded an assault by accident or some trigger-happy local commander. Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous."

Similarly, Clark M. Clifford, Counsel to the President at the time of the attack, recalled: 47

“I do not know to this day at what level the attack on the Liberty was authorized and I think it is unlikely that the full truth will ever come out. Having been for so long a staunch supporter of Israel, I was particularly troubled by this incident; I could not bring myself to believe that such an action could have been authorized by Levi Eshkol. Yet somewhere inside the Israeli government, somewhere along the chain of command, something had gone terribly wrong--and then had been covered up. I never felt the Israelis made adequate restitution or explanation for their actions...."

45 Helms, Richard and William Hood, A Look over My Shoulder: A Life in the Central Intelligence Agency, Random House, New York, 2003, p. 301

46 Rusk, Dean, Daniel S. Papp (Ed.), As I Saw It, W.W.Norton, New York,1990 p. 388

47 Clifford, Clark, Richard Holbrooke Counsel to the President: A Memoir, Random House, New York, 1991, p. 224

The then-General Counsel for the Department of Defense, attorney Paul C. Warnke, opined: 48

"I found it hard to believe that it was, in fact, an honest mistake on the part of the Israeli air force units. I still find it impossible to believe that it was. I suspect that in the heat of battle they figured that the presence of this American ship was inimical to their interests,  and that somebody without authorization attacked it."

48 Who Says the Liberty Attack was Deliberate? Quoting Paul C. Warnke, USS Liberty Memorial Site, May 14, 2005 http://www.ussliberty.org/supporters.htm

49 Moorer Commission, Formal Findings , Exhibit 27:

“49. That due to continuing pressure by the pro-Israel lobby in the United States, this attack remains the only serious naval incident that has never been thoroughly investigated by Congress; to this day, no surviving crewmember has been permitted to officially and publicly testify about the attack. 49”

"The Executive Branch of the United States Government undertook no further review of the attack. Similarly, the United States Congress has never investigated the attack,making it the only attack on a United States Navy ship, involving significant loss of life, that has not been so investigated. 49"

EXTRACT #2

The “Moorer Commission” (Chaired by Adm. Moorer) investigated the attack and made the following findings: 

“We, the undersigned, having undertaken an independent investigation of Israel's attackon USS Liberty, including eyewitness testimony from surviving crewmembers, a review of naval and other official records, an examination of official statements by the Israeli and American governments, a study of the conclusions of all previous official inquiries, and a consideration of important new evidence and recent statements from individuals having direct knowledge of the attack or the cover up, hereby find the following:

1. That on June 8, 1967, after eight hours of aerial surveillance, Israel launched a two hour air and naval attack against USS Liberty, the world's most sophisticated intelligence ship, inflicting 34 dead and 173 wounded American servicemen (a casualty rate of seventy percent, in a crew of 294);

2. That the Israeli air attack lasted approximately 25 minutes, during which time unmarked Israeli aircraft dropped napalm canisters on USS Liberty's bridge, and fired30mm cannons and rockets into our ship, causing 821 holes, more than 100 of which were rocket-size; survivors estimate 30 or more sorties were flown over the ship by a minimum of 12 attacking Israeli planes which were jamming all five American emergency radio channels;

3. That the torpedo boat attack involved not only the firing of torpedoes, but the machine-gunning of Liberty's firefighters and stretcher-bearers as they struggled to savetheir ship and crew; the Israeli torpedo boats later returned to machine-gun at close range three of the Liberty's life rafts that had been lowered into the water by survivors to rescue the most seriously wounded;

4. That there is compelling evidence that Israel's attack was a deliberate attempt to destroy an American ship and kill her entire crew; evidence of such intent is supported by statements from Secretary of State Dean Rusk, Undersecretary of State George Ball, former CIA director Richard Helms, former NSA directors Lieutenant General William Odom, USA (Ret.), Admiral Bobby Ray Inman, USN (Ret.), and Marshal Carter; former NSA deputy directors Oliver Kirby and Major General John Morrison, USAF (Ret.); and former Ambassador Dwight Porter, U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon in 1967;

5. That in attacking USS Liberty, Israel committed acts of murder against American servicemen and an act of war against the United States;

6. That fearing conflict with Israel, the White House deliberately prevented the U.S. Navy from coming to the defense of USS Liberty by recalling Sixth Fleet military rescue support while the ship was under attack; evidence of the recall of rescue aircraft is supported by statements of Captain Joe Tully, Commanding Officer of the aircraft carrierUSS Saratoga, and Rear Admiral Lawrence Geis, the Sixth Fleet carrier division commander,  at the time of the attack; never before in American naval history has a rescue mission been cancelled when an American ship was under attack;

7. That although Liberty was saved from almost certain destruction through the heroic efforts of the ship's Captain, William L. McGonagle (MOH), and his brave crew, surviving crewmembers were later threatened with "court-martial, imprisonment or worse" if they exposed the truth; and were abandoned by their own government;

8. That due to the influence of Israel's powerful supporters in the United States, the White House deliberately covered up the facts of this attack from the American people;

9. That due to continuing pressure by the pro-Israel lobby in the United States, this attack remains the only serious naval incident that has never been thoroughly investigated by Congress; to this day, no surviving crewmember has been permitted to officially and publicly testify about the attack;

10. That there has been an official cover-up without precedent in American naval history; the existence of such a cover-up is now supported by statements of Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, USN (Ret.), former Judge Advocate General of the Navy; and Captain Ward Boston, USN, (Ret.), the chief counsel to the Navy's 1967 Court of Inquiry of Liberty attack;

11. That the truth about Israel's attack and subsequent White House cover-up continues to be officially concealed from the American people to the present day and is a national disgrace;

12. That a danger to our national security exists whenever our elected officials are willing to subordinate American interests to those of any foreign nation, and specifically are unwilling to challenge Israel's interests when they conflict with American interests; this policy, evidenced by the failure to defend USS Liberty and the subsequent official cover-up of the Israeli attack, endangers the safety of Americans and the security of the United States.

WHEREUPON, we, the undersigned, in order to fulfill our duty to the brave crew of USS Liberty and to all Americans who are asked to serve in our Armed Forces, hereby call upon the Department of the Navy, the Congress of the United States and the American people to immediately take the following actions:

FIRST: That a new Court of Inquiry be convened by the Department of the Navy, operating with Congressional oversight, to take public testimony from surviving crew members; and to thoroughly investigate the circumstances of the attack on the USS Liberty, with full cooperation from the National Security Agency, the Central Intelligence Agency and the military intelligence services, and to determine Israel's possible motive in launching said attack on a U.S. naval vessel;

SECOND: That every appropriate committee of the Congress of the United States investigate the actions of the White House and Defense Department that prevented the rescue of the USS Liberty, thereafter threatened her surviving officers and men if they exposed the truth, and covered up the true circumstances of the attack from the American people; and

THIRD: That the eighth day of June of every year be proclaimed to be hereafter known As USS LIBERTY REMEMBRANCE DAY, in order to commemorate USS Liberty's heroic crew; and to educate the American people of the danger to our national security inherent in any passionate attachment of our elected officials for any foreign nation.


 We, the undersigned, hereby affix our hands and seals, this 22nd day of October, 2003.

Admiral Thomas H. Moorer, USN, Ret.
Former Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff

General of Marines Raymond G. Davis, USMC,
MOH Former [Assistant] Commandant of the United States Marine Corps

Merlin Staring
Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, USN, Ret.,
Former Judge Advocate General of the Navy,

James Akins
Ambassador James Akins, Ret.,
Former United States Ambassador to Saudi Arabia”


Semper Remembering

Anthony F. Milavic
Major USMC (Ret.)

-------------------4TH GROUP OF RESPONSES-------

2 Sep

MILINET: 4th Resps (6) "USS LIBERTY (AGTR-5)"

===============

Excellent discussion.  I'm sure our 'pro-Israel' leaning in congress had nothing to do with the coverup.  

Semper Fi, Paul


----------------ANOTHER RESPONSE-----

Anthony  --  I thought this would happen if I weighed in again.  Maybe it's a good thing.  Not a good thing if folks start screaming at each other. I for one am not impressed by reams of documents.  You of all people know that any agency or arm of the U.S. government can generate any tonnage of documentation needed to win the day.  It's still laughable to me (and regrettably -- predictable) how quickly the Liberty story is grouped with other conspiracy theories (some hair-brained, others believable) as a means to undermine its credibility.  I guess it's done because more often than not, it works!

I should tell you that your questions, along with the first round of MILNET responses, prompted me to pass on a page of questions to my JCS contact.  I will pass along his answers to you -- unexpurgated -- when/as they are received.

As a matter of interest, when I was an the staff of Naples-based COMCARGRU TWO (CTF-60), I dated the widow of an Israeli F-4 pilot who was shot down early in the war -- a casualty of Egyptian air defenses.  I never thought to ask her what language her husband spoke in the cockpit.  We did socialize in a circle of international friends who always communicated in English -- even when I was not around (spent ~80% of my time there at sea).  She was a blue-eyed blond, from Estonia.  It should come as no surprise that many (most) Israelis don't fit the popular stereotypes. They're just like us.  (Maybe that's why so many Americans hate them. Wink)

Les

----------ANOTHER RESPONSE-----

NOW WE KNOW THE TRUTH--from Wikipedia! Come on, guys. 

Norman

---------ANOTHER RESPONSE--------

Norman, 

It appears you attribute the cited "A REPORT" contained in "4th Responses" to "Wikipedia!" even though it is stated in "A REPORT" as:

This Report is filed by the USS Liberty Veterans Association, Inc. a California

non-profit corporation, recognized by the Internal Revenue Service as a Section

501(c)(3) tax exempt veterans organization, acting on behalf of the surviving crewmembersof USS Liberty.


Given your extensive experience reporting on and consulting to the United States Navy as well as your self-anointed moniker of "wordsmith," are you saying that the testimony of Sailors of the United States Navy who wher aboard Liberty at the time of the attack
is less than credible? 

Semper Asking,

Anthony F. Milavic
Major USMC (Ret.)

---------------ANOTHER RESPONSE---------

Just a simple question to both the conspiracy theorists and doubters.  Why didn’t the Israelis simply jam the comms originating from the Liberty to all elements of the USG?  They had the proximate capability in place to do so.  Why escalate it to taking the ship out?

Semper Wondering,

Jim Wellington

---------------ANOTHER RESPONSE-----------

BLUF: The President of the United States was not "shocked" about the attack on Pearl Harbor

In Sept 1941, the United States stationed B-17 Bombers within the Pacific, to serve as a threat deterrent to the Japanese:

- (19) B-17 Clark Field, Philippines

- (16) B-17 Luzon, Philippines

- (12) B-17 Hickam Field, Hawaii

 

In less than 90 days, Japan provided her "response" to the US threat deterrent:

- On Dec 7 1941, Japanese attacked US Forces in Hawaii with the intent to cripple the US Naval Fleet marshalled in Pearl Harbor

- On Dec 9 1941, the Japanese attacked US Forces in the Phillipines specifically targeting B-17 aircraft capable of attacking Japanese interests

POWDER

------------------------5TH GROUP OF RESPONSES------ 

3 September

MILINET: 5th Resps (7) "USS LIBERTY (AGTR-5)"

===============

Anthony -- Below is the response I received from my JCS contact during the Liberty incident.  As I explained in my last email, I forwarded him a detailed list of questions extracted from your and milnet comments, with the reguest that he give me detailed answers.  His opening statement is a direct response to that request.  Although brief, its meaning is clear -- he is still unable to discuss the details in the clear.  But what he does tell us is revealing, and it does confirm my basic point.  The Liberty was attacked because it was transmitting data on 'Israeli movements/actions' (whatever that means) to the Egyptians.

My contact was able to supply me with one detail that explodes one of the perfect truths in MILNET orbit about there being no Hebrew translators aboard Liberty.  I had to sit through the torture of a BBC conspiracy/cover-up documentary that harped for 60 minutes on the theme: U.S. Government BAD; Israeli Government WORSE;  Liberty crew VICTIMS.  But tucked away in about minute 50 was this fascinating bit of information:  "A civilian NSA Hebrew linguist, name of Berg, came up missing after the atttack.  His shredded remains were found hanging from the piping and overhead wiring in his work station -- drained and exposed three days after the attack when Liberty was drydocked for emergency repairs in Valetta Harbor, Malta.  His work station was in a below-the-waterline compartment up forward that was struck by a torpedo fired by one of the Israeli gunboats."  

I surmise from my contact's comments that many on Liberty did not know what he was doing on board.

So there you have it, from the Great Land, Anthony (that's 'Alaska' in Upik) .  May I please go now, Sir?  A bear ripped into a freezer in my garage yesterday; they get desperate this time of year if they sense that they are not fat enough to make it through winter hibernation.  So I need to atttend to something of more immediate importance than Liberty right now -- cleaning up the place.

In all seriousness, I do hope the following will add value to what I hope will continue to be an ernest and honest dialog between gentlemen.

Les

----------------------------

 
Les,

On the issue of Liberty spying on Israel: The following is taken from a report by Janine Zacharia that appeared in the January 13, 2004 issue of THE JERUSALEM POST:

"On Monday, the State Department hosted a conference on the 1967 war, including the Liberty incident, to mark the release of a new volume of historical papers from the Johnson Administration. The 542 declassified documents, roughly 1100 pages in length, were culled from the archives of the White House, State Department, Pentagon and various intelligence agencies. They cover May through November 1967."

"Historians said the new documentation included little new on the Liberty incident itself. It is still not known, for example, why the USS Liberty, an intelligence-gathering ship, was allowed to linger so close to the war zone, or why Israel was not informed of its presence in the area. Analysts said however that while its original mission remains murky, it was now evident that the ship was not sent to spy on Israel since the bulk of linguists on board spoke Arabic or Russian and the ship had no Hebrew translators to monitor Israeli communications in real time."

Semper TRYING To Keep The Record Straight,

Anthony F. Milavic
Major USMC (Ret.)

 ---------------------ANOTHER RESPONSE-----------

When I first met an Israeli fighter pilot at lunch with a colleague who was writing a book on Israeli fighter aces (Peter Mersky), I asked which language they spoke "in the cockpit."  His replay--we train in Hebrew, we all speak Hebrew--you guess!  No way in combat would they risk using a "foreign" language. Some Israelis, and I would guess some pilots, are not fluent in English; indeed, I have met a few Israelis (on several trips there) who do not speak English at all, except for a few expressions.  This includes many of the younger generations who study other languages in schools--where Hebrew is the basic language.

On one trip I spent a day at the Navy's tactical trainer in Haifa:  every officer (tactical officers, XOs, and COs) whom I met that day were fluent in English; and every exercise in the tactical trainer was conducted entirely in Hebrew... except for a few expletives.

Hebrew is the language of the Israeli armed forces.  Is there any evidence that anyone aboard the Liberty spoke English (i.e., the intercepts story)?  If so, please name him.  All available Navy and NSA documentation lists only Arabic and Russian speakers as the ship was there to ascertain the extent of Soviet activity in Egypt and in the area.

Myth vs. fact: Several accounts of the Liberty attack--including by at least one officer who was below decks for the entire attack--claimed that the attacking aircraft had no Israeli markings.  "Beep." When I inquired about this, it was pointed out that at the time all Israeli combat (and most other) aircraft were of foreign make with many of French design--of types flown by several Arab nations.  "No way" I was told, would they not have Israeli markings because of the fear of other Arab states shifting aircraft to the combat area--which had happened before (and after).

Let's get facts into the discussion--not hearsay about machine gunning survivors in lifeboats or Navy Phantoms taking off with nukes.  

Norman

---------------------ANOTHER RESPONSE----------

"…acting on behalf of the surviving crew members…

I'm always fascinated by the legalese in these things, and often wonder what it means.  In this case, does it mean that Association is not actually made up of the veterans themselves?  How many members of the Associations are actually surviving crew members?  Who exactly appointed the Association to act on their behalf?  Was it all of the surviving crew members?  Virtually none of these questions are answered on the organization's website.  

I can't actually tell if this organization has any members other than Ernie Gallo.  We do learn a great deal about Mr. Gallo from the site.  Indeed, the largest single item on the site is his "I am not an anti-semite" letter regarding why he was, in his view, wrongfully kicked out of the Navy League.  It sort of reminds me of listening to Richard Nixon's "I am not a crook" speech many years ago.

A bit more internet searching reveals that Mr. Gallo is apparently well thought of by common dreams.org, long a supporter of Palestinian terrorism. 

Sorry, Major, but this sort of vagueness and technicality leaves me immediately wondering what the Association's interest really is.  Well, actually, it doesn't.  I'm pretty damn sure I know what it's interest is, and it has damn little to do with representing the interests of the surviving veterans of the Liberty.

[Anonymous]

------------------ANOTHER RESPONSE-------

Anonymous,

REF: Your comment "I can't actually tell if this organization has any members other than Ernie Gallo."

The following with signatures appears at the end of "A REPORT":

 "Respectfully submitted on behalf of the USS Liberty Veterans Association, Inc., on

June 8, 2005 this, the thirty-eighth anniversary of the Israeli attack on their ship.

 BY

Gary W. Brummett, President and nMember of the Board of Directors

[MILINET NOTE: USS Liberty Survivor]

 Stan W. White, Member of the Board of Directors

 Maurice Shafer, Member of the Board of Directors

 Glenn Oliphant, Member of the Board of Directors

[MILINET NOTE: USS Liberty Survivor; Retired, U.S. Marine]

 Ernest A. Gallo, Member of the Board of Directors

 James R. Gotcher, General Legal Counsel

[MILINET NOTE: A cursory GOOGLE search revealed that at LEAST two of the above signatories were USS Liberty survivors.] 

 Semper TRYING To Keep The Record Straight,

 

  Anthony F. Milavic

Major USMC (Ret.)

---------------ANOTHER RESPONSE--------

The annual MILINET..."Liberty Incident Bash Israel Event" has become "boring" and "predictable".  

RNS RJI 

--------------ANOTHER RESPONSE---------

I am astounded that Norman so easily discounts the report/findings/opinions from ADM Moorer and his senior officer panel .

Chuck

-----------------6TH GROUP OF RESPONSES--------

4 September

MILINET: 6th Resps (4) "USS Liberty (AGTR-5)"

  ====================

Having just finished reading "Assualt on the Liberty" the last info was enlightneing. The best of MILNET!

Semper Fi

Tom Bailey

-----------------ANOTHER RESPONSE------

Sorry... I meant to write "is there any evidence that anyone aboard the Liberty spoke HEBREW"... (not English).  I am still seeking any evidence or direct confirmation that there were Hebrew linguists on board; the EC-121 people from Navy/NSA and the ship's roster reveal no one who spoke Hebrew.  Indeed, just the opposite has been confirmed.  Please... any evidence? Further, any evidence that the ship was transmitting real-time intel information to any U.S. commands? 

Norman

----------------------ANOTHER RESPONSE-----------

Anthony, fascinating exchange, suggest MILINET-ers reading the books: "Operation Cyanide" where Peter Hounam posits the attack was part of a clandestine plan between the US and Israel known as "Operation Cyanide," designed to ensure victory for Israel in the Middle East. By blaming the attack on the Arab world, retaliation on a grand scale would be justified. James Scott's "Attacked on the Liberty" notes the most senior U.S. intelligence officials were convinced that the attack was deliberate, they agreed to keep quiet as part of a massive White House cover-up to protect U.S.-Israeli relations. Scott's father was there on the USS Liberty. Also read Jim's Ennes book, Assault on the Liberty., Ennes too was there on the USS Liberty and he will make you sit up and take notice. Finally History DVD-- Cover Up: Attack On The USS Liberty available on Amazon.  

S/f  GI

PS: Phillip Tourney's  book: What I Saw That Day Israel's June 8 1967 Holocaust of US Servicemen Aboard the USS LIBERTY and its Aftermath

Christpher Mitchell's DVD: USS Liberty Dead in the Water (2001)

-----------------------ANOTHER RESPONSE------

Les,

 There is no one by the name of Berg, military or civilian, on the ship’s personnel roster. 
  http://www.ussliberty.org/roster.htm

 Additionally, a check of the National Cryptologic Memorial does not list an NSA military or civilian by the name of Berg killed on June 8, 1967.  Please see;  

http://www.nsa.gov/about/cryptologic_heritage/memorial_wall/memorial_wall_list.shtml

The only BBC report (and attendant responses to said article) I could find on the USS Liberty is @; 

http://www.uss-liberty.com/2010/02/06/bbc-why-did-israel-attack-uss-  liberty/, which was written by a Raffi Berg, but does not mention anyone by the name of Berg as part of the ship’s personnel roster.  Please provide, or have your friend  reference, a link to the BBC report to validate the claim.

Just callin’ ‘em as I see ‘em.

V/R,

Jim Wellington

---------------------7th GROUP OF  RESPONSES-----------

6 September

MILINET: 7th Resps (2) "USS Liberty (AGTR-5)

=================

Tom, Unfortunately, the Ennis book is inundated with factual errors.  Yell if you wish a list of some of them.  I recommend A.J. Cristol, The Liberty Incident. (2002, hence has considerable NSA material in it)).

Cristol, an ex-Navy carrier pilot, sitting federal judge, and PhD historian, interviewed the top people in the USA (from carrier skippers up) and the top people in Israel (minister of defense, top Navy and AF people--plus attacking pilots and PT boat commanders), the US Navy EC-121 Hebrew linguists, the Liberty's CO, the U.S. Naval Attache in Israel at the time (who said that there were no U.S. ships in the area), etc.   It is highly recommended--with glowing endorsements on the book's jacket from:

Sen. John McCain (conforming his father's views of findings of the Navy court of inquiry); McCain wrote, "I commend Judge Cristol for his thoroughness and fairness, and I commend this work."

Adm. Bud Edney, former SAC Lant and Commander Atlantic Fleet
Adm. David Jeremiah, former vice chairman of the JCS
Adm Jerry Johnson, former CNO

    
Vice Adm. Don Engen, who was skipper of the carrier America in the Med at the time of the attack


A book well worth reading. 

Norman

----------------ANOTHER RESPONSE-------

The below CITATION for the Medal of Honor awarded to the captain of USS Liberty, Capt. William L. McGonagle, USN, was copied from 
the CONGRESSIONAL MEDAL OF HONOR SOCIETY web site http://www.cmohs.org/. There are several curious anomalies here that I observe following the CITATION:

CITATION

"For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty. Sailing in international waters, the Liberty was attacked without warning by jet fighter aircraft and motor torpedo boats which inflicted many casualties among the crew and caused extreme damage to the ship. Although severely wounded during the first air attack, Capt. McGonagle remained at his battle station on the badly damaged bridge and, with full knowledge of the seriousness of his wounds, subordinated his own welfare to the safety and survival of his command. Steadfastly refusing any treatment which would take him away from his post, he calmly continued to exercise firm command of his ship. Despite continuous exposure to fire, he maneuvered his ship, directed its defense, supervised the control of flooding and fire, and saw to the care of the casualties. Capt. McGonagle's extraordinary valor under these conditions inspired the surviving members of the Liberty's crew, many of them seriously wounded, to heroic efforts to overcome the battle damage and keep the ship afloat. Subsequent to the attack, although in great pain and weak from the loss of blood, Captain McGonagle remained at his battle station and continued to command his ship for more than 17 hours. It was only after rendezvous with a U.S. destroyer that he relinquished personal control of the Liberty and permitted himself to be removed from the bridge. Even then, he refused much needed medical attention until convinced that the seriously wounded among his crew had been treated. Capt. McGonagle's superb professionalism, courageous fighting spirit, and valiant leadership saved his ship and many lives. His actions sustain and enhance the finest traditions of the U.S. Naval Service." 

1) According to U.S. Congressional legislation the Medal of Honor is awarded by the President of the United States in the name of the U.S. Congress. Yet, this award was presented by the Secretary of the Navy at the Washington Navy Yard on 11 June 1968 rather than by the sitting president, Lyndon Johnson, in the White House.

2) The CITATION says, "Sailing in international waters, the Liberty was attacked without warning by jet fighter aircraft and motor torpedo boats . . ." The identity of those attacking units--the Israel Defense Force (IDF)--is NOT mentioned in this CITATION. 

3) The Medal of Honor is awarded for "action against an enemy of the United States" and the "enemy" is not named in this CITATION. 

4) Even the headstone marking his grave at Arlington National Cemetery suggests that Captain McGonagle demonstrated "conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity" against an Armed Force other than that of Israel during the "Six-Day War":


Does this constitute a "Cover up," "Who? Me?" or a "Let's forget it." ?

Semper Asking,

Anthony F. Milavic
Major USMC (Ret)

------------------------8th GROUP OF RESPONSES-------- 

7 September

MILINET: 8th Resps (2) USS Liberty (AGTR-5)

=====================

It is interesting that during this discussion, I have not seen the input from 

ADM Kidd's early quick look; here it is (clearly the intent was to SINK the Liberty, not just shut down their activity. Why, I wonder?
http://www.rense.com/general47/kidd.htm

Chuck Myers

------------------------ANOTHER RESPONSE---------

Norman writes: "

Tom, Unfortunately, the Ennis book is inundated with factual errors.  Yell if you wish a list of some of them.  I recommend A.J. Cristol, The Liberty Incident. (2002, hence has considerable NSA material in it))....It is highly recommended--with glowing endorsements on the book's jacket from:

Anthony, recommend MILINET-ers, google, research, and check reviews of the Cristol book. Would not rely on a books's cover endorsement for writers/publishes do not generally ask critics or one with a divergent view to endorse one's book. Best to get a 360 and decided for yourself. Simply citing book cover endorsements is at best weak. Pray MILNET hears for USS Liberty survivors (they were there) and USS Liberty Association on this. For some divergent reviews from Amazon see the following:

GI

Cristol is the most quoted Liberty Israeli apologist..., April 12, 2006

By William A. Heimiller (Las Vegas, NV) - See all my reviews

This review is from: The Liberty Incident: The 1967 Attack on the U.S. Navy Spy Ship (Hardcover)

Even if you want to believe it to be an accident, you can do better than this book. Cristol created this book based on his doctoral dissertation, which was manufactured after (and some estimate to obfuscate and diffuse) Dr. John Borne's initial doctoral dissertation on the Liberty assault which came to the conclusion Israel knew it was a US ship before they attacked. 

You don't even need to open the book to know what's inside!...let's take a look at the front cover photo...

     http://www.ussliberty.org/g/photofraud.jpg

The photo, claimed in the book to be provided to Cristol by the Israeli Air Force, as a gun camera photo, shows the USS Liberty flying no flag as it is attacked, with even a large splash of munition next to it. This of course reinforces Israel's claim there was no flag flying during the attack, which would then debunk the survivors' claim they had an American flag flying(and put up an even larger US flag after the first was shot down!). 

-It turns out, according to a photo analysis done for the Liberty survivors' website, this "is in fact a doctored view of the ship just as she tied up at the pier at Little Creek, Virginia, in July, 1967, upon her return from repairs in Malta." The photo evidence is too much to list but here is some of it: All the vectors and even people on the ship correspond to the Little Creek dock photo. The smoke was apparently falsified - there is no smoke or fire damage in corresponding areas of the ship, in photos taken immediately after the attack. The displacement(how deep in the water the ship sets due to weight) of the Liberty during the actual attack was much greater than the Cristol image depicted, but corresponded perfectly with the Little Creek photo (after the ship was offloaded). The munition splash apparently was added to cover a tug boat that occluded a small part of the front side of the Liberty. A photo of a real wake created by the Liberty does not correspond to what was apparently a post photo wake added to the photo of the stationary Liberty. Etcetera, etcetera. Of course, the fact that there is no flag in Cristol's cover picture corresponds to the fact it is customary to take down the flag once you get into port, as the real Little Creek photo shows. So there you have it, no need to even open this book. Sorry to say, the photo was presented as evidence in a Thames television presentation before a proper analysis and debunking was done. 

This is the second book(the other is the unrelated "Hitler's Pope" by Cornwell) I've reviewed where a photo was presented as evidence, but was apparently otherwise. 

If you are an Israeli apologist and want to give a better try than Cristol's book, it's not hard. But you should at least go to the survivors' website and get firsthand information so you don't look as foolish as Cristol. Now that Cristol is being dismissed, Michael Oren is the next big hope for Israeli apologists concerning Liberty. This assault is so dangerous to Israel's reputation that apologists consistently offer terminology that attempts to stop discussion on the subject rather than address concerns, such as the title of Michael Oren's writing's "USS Liberty: Case Closed". The process is consistent, first the apologist (Oren/Cristol/whoever) offers what they claim is a thorough discussion-ending report(in Oren's case even titling it as such), then the apologist goes on with a typical limited and contextually false account, then right on queue, the apologist is soon after applauded for such a "conclusive", "thorough", "definitive" account. Then eventually the apologist is dismissed by those on the other side as false after having his material reviewed, such as Cristol eventually was. Then another apologist takes over the reigns as 'lead USS Liberty reference' for the apologists, conveniently forgetting they were just supporting the last guy who who offered false claims. To some, it might seem strange Oren was given the top prize at the LA book fair for what was a rehashing the 1967 Israeli six day war in his book "Six Days of War". What Oren did conveniently offer in his newly awarded book, just as Crystol conveniently offered, was, once again, "new evidence" that the attack on the Liberty was accidental. Of course, "Body of Secrets" author James Bamford eventually took great exception to Oren's selective Liberty account, and offers insight into Oren's personal history and his close working connections to those who apparently were connected to Israeli war crimes that the Liberty would have monitored, and that, as Bamford suggests, would have been reason to snuff out the Liberty's surveillance. 

The real story, and the amazing and intriguing evidence that is now coming out is mostly coming from NSA sources. The Anti-Defamation League primarily references Cristol and NSA transcripts released in 1999 of helicopter pilots sent to the Liberty after the attack. Of course, the ADL pointing to the helicopter transmissions is misleading, as the unreleased plane and boat transmissions(those taking part in the attacks) are the relevant ones. Of course the ADL doesn't address Cristol's basic problems, such as that silly cover photo passed off as an Israeli gun camera photo. Some amazing admissions have occured just recently(after 2000). There is still apparently a key NSA record of the attack, taken from a an NSA spyplane in the area of the attack, that is being withheld. 

"Of four former NSA/CIA seniors with inside knowledge, none was aware of any agency official who dissented from the position that the attack was deliberate." - Naval Institute Proceedings 

"That the attack was deliberate "just wasn't a disputed issue" within the National Security Agency" - former NSA director William Odom, 3 March 2003 interview for Naval Institute Proceedings 

"...the board of inquiry (concluded) that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty." 

-- CIA Director Richard Helms 

"I can tell you for an absolute certainty (from intercepted communications) that the Israelis knew they were attacking an American ship."-- NSA Deputy Director Oliver Kirby 

Write a letter to your Congressman and sign the Liberty petition, if you want the NSA record released!! 

1.0 out of 5 stars The official "USS Liberty Apologist's resource", July 16, 2007

By JWest "Southron" (Duluth, MN, USA) - See all my reviews

This review is from: The Liberty Incident: The 1967 Israeli Attack on the U.S. Navy Spy Ship (Paperback)

Judge Cristal's book is and has become just the continuing written resource of the "official version". He was a bankruptcy judge, a naval reserve officer who never saw combat, was never there, avoided the survivor's versions of events if it doesn't mesh with the "accident" thesis. He is held in deep disregard by the Liberty Veterans Organization, they are all wrong yet his version is correct. They were there, he was not. 

What it doesn't say and what it avoids is as important as what he does says. He has avoided any debate whatsoever with any member of the Liberty Veterans Organization but now spends his time answering op-ed pieces proclaiming the "case is closed". His book is a part of the Liberty canon and it does demostrate the extremes that the Liberty opponents have taken over the last 40 years. The question still remains "why?". If it was a "friendly fire" so-called accident. Why oppose the Liberty crew the first open honest day in an open manner? Like Ennes say, if they are lying, they go to jail but they are willing to take the chance. 

But a bankruptcy judge who was never there, never a part of the investigation and and who has been condemned by the very limited number of Liberty crew he sought information and who deny "his version" of he claims does not make this a reliable resource. You want the truth, read Jim Ennnes' book, "Assault on the Liberty". He was there and no one has ever called his book disingenuous or fabricated. 

There are two sides to every story and the good Judge has no monopoly on the truth. Certainly not the "Liberty Incident". BTW an "Attack" is hardly an "Incident" when 34 crew members were killed and 174 wounded. What's next "The 9-11 Incident"? Decide for yourself. Buy it used .

1.0 out of 5 stars deceptive, November 14, 2005

By joseph graziano (new york) - See all my reviews

This review is from: The Liberty Incident: The 1967 Israeli Attack on the U.S. Navy Spy Ship (Paperback)

I find it very telling Judge Cristol included so few photographs of the damage to the Liberty. They clearly show most of it, with the exception of the torpedo hit, was inflicted by rocket fire from the planes. The use of rockets in the attack is officially denied by Israel. Why? Because most of the superstructure and much of the hull took scores of hits from almost every conceivable angle. Many of them penetrating several bulkheads. The ship looked like an angry grizzly bear got to chewing on a steel bucket. Such extensive damage clearly refutes Israeli claims the air attack involved only 4 aircraft and a maximum of 6 strafing runs over 12-14 minutes. It does support survivor's statements that dozens of strafing runs were made over 25 or more minutes. These facts alone should cause any reasonable person to very seriously doubt the "accident" explanation for the attack. Consider also this. The aircraft flying at a typical cruising speed of 500mph would have burned about 10gal/min of fuel. In 25 minutes they would have each used 1,500-2,000lbs. The pilots wouldn't have consumed so much fuel over the target unless they had planned for it in advance.

1.0 out of 5 stars A wishful fantasy, November 27, 2004

By Major ___ de Cloverly - See all my reviews

This review is from: The Liberty Incident: The 1967 Israeli Attack on the U.S. Navy Spy Ship (Paperback)

Even without going outside the covers of The Liberty Incident, a conclusive case can be made for the proposition that this book was written in defense of the official Israeli position. If one goes outside the book to verify facts, the result is that the reader is unable to verify almost none of the facts. 

Within the book, the author appears to make a conscious effort to obfuscate contrary facts by constantly digressing into wholly irrelevant subjects before returning to the subject under consideration. 

For True Believers, this book is exactly what you are looking for. For everyone else, it is a complete waste of time.

1.0 out of 5 stars The untruths begin on the cover..., December 2, 2004

By A.J. Phillips (West Coast, USA) - See all my reviews

This review is from: The Liberty Incident: The 1967 Israeli Attack on the U.S. Navy Spy Ship (Paperback)

The untruths of this book begin on the cover, which purports to show a very blurry Israeli aircraft gun camera shot of the Liberty (more complete views of the image are in the book). In reality the Liberty had big white identifiers on the bow, one quarter the height of the ship, clearly distinguishing it from Egyptian ships. These numbers have been photoshopped out of Cristol's gun camera images, apparently. Here is an experiment for skeptics: google for a similar high-angle frontal photo of the Liberty on the web, blur the photo in your favorite program until it looks like Cristol's gun camera photo, and see if you can still discern the numbers. You WILL still see the identifier, if only as a big white splotch, though it is completely blacked out in Cristol's photos. Why is this significant? Because any pilot would have seen the big white American numbers too. Don't believe me, don't believe Cristol, but try it yourself.

1.0 out of 5 stars you know it's meaningless when..., December 20, 2005

By J.M. - See all my reviews

This review is from: The Liberty Incident: The 1967 Attack on the U.S. Navy Spy Ship (Hardcover)

The author fails to interview more than 1/4 of the survivors of the actual incident. That's a very L.B. Johnsonesque manuever: Obfuscate with "facts" from impartial sources (not the actual victims of the incident of course, they're too "emotional and biased" hence their thoughts are meaningless). Non-partial sources such as Israeli military personnel and top brass will give a non-political, no bs, view of course. It's not like they're worried about promotion or anything! Isn't odd though that LBJ didn't pin Commander McGonagle's Medal of Honor on the White House lawn? It's not like it's an important event, but at least give the guy a break!

1.0 out of 5 stars Pure Propaganda, Author is a Bankruptcy Judge with no insider knowledge. Would rate lower if possible, May 15, 2011

By ryan-o- - See all my reviews

This review is from: The Liberty Incident: The 1967 Attack on the U.S. Navy Spy Ship (Hardcover)

Author Ahron Jay Cristol is a bankruptcy judge in Miami, Florida with absolutely no ties to the US Government and no real military experience, yet he somehow felt compelled to write a book about the most controversial topic in USA history regarding our relationship with our close "ally". This book should be read with a cynical eye. There is very little truth in it and most of it is based on known lies. Because these lies did appear in official sources, the author can get off quite easily and say they did their homework. Keep in mind that Mr. Cristol is hardly worthy of being an expert on the topic. For one thing, his heart lies in the Nation his religion identifies as his national homeland. You know, the one who attacked us and the book is about? That should be enough to convince any reader of his bias on the topic before getting into the fact that he has zero expert knowledge on it. Mr. Cristol also harassed American survivors of the USS Liberty during his research of the book, and the sleeve even quotes a dead man... with a quote dated after he died. 

The "dishonorable" Mr. Cristol should be deported for writing such an awful anti-American text which is pure propaganda for his "National home land". Every single person on Amazon who has written a positive review should be ashamed as well. What country do you belong to? Certainly not the United States of America. Perhaps your hearts also lie over there as well, and if that is the case please move there and review the book on your own Amazon portal. Garbage, I only recommend reading it to see how low some fanatics will go to deflect criticism for you-know-who.

Help other customers find the most helpful reviews 

Was this review helpful to you? Yes No

Report abuse | Permalink

Comment Comment

1.0 out of 5 stars Flimsy, Frivoulous and Decepetive, March 8, 2010

By Budd Cardone (Indianapolis IN USA) - See all my reviews

(REAL NAME)   

Amazon Verified Purchase(What's this?)

This review is from: The Liberty Incident: The 1967 Attack on the U.S. Navy Spy Ship (Hardcover)

The 40+ year argument regarding the USS Liberty "incident" is anchored to the fact that a thorough and objective investigation was never undertaken. Evidence and testimonies were ignored, facts redacted, and many of the actual investigators have made it known that they were under orders to sanitize the report of any information that might have been inflammatory against Israel. 

The survivors of the Liberty have been staunch in their position that the official reports where white-washed. What Mr. Cristol has achieved is nothing less that further white-washing the facts. 

Basing his arguments on information that is neutralized by both evidence and the testimony of the actual survivors, the author perpetuates an evident hoax under the guise of "intensive research". With all due respect to Mr. Cristol, once a Navy pilot and a federal judge, his illustrious achievements do not qualify him to present his opinions as conclusive finding. They are simply that - opinions - and smack of a bias and prejudicial lean towards Israel. 

If the book serves any purpose whatsoever, it is as evidence of the mind-set that continues the attempt to bury the actual facts surrounding the USS Liberty. 

:

1.0 out of 5 stars Israeli Apologist "Fiction", June 22, 2009

By J. T. Halbardier (Visalia, CA, USA) - See all my reviews

(REAL NAME)

   

This review is from: The Liberty Incident: The 1967 Attack on the U.S. Navy Spy Ship (Hardcover)

If the reader wants to learn the TRUTH concerning the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty, an unarmed intelligence gathering Navy ship, 42 years ago, they would be wise TO SKIP "The Liberty Incident". Cristol makes the argument that it was an "ACCIDENT" and has been thoroughly investigated numerous times. NOT true. The only investigation was a hastily conducted Naval Court of Inquiry in 1967 that, for political reasons, was falsified to support Israel's claim of mistaken identity, signed off by the Johnson Administration, and the case closed. Cristol's "research" and numerous trips to Israel to "investigate" were funded, of course, by Israel or their lobby. What would YOU expect the writings to reflect? 

As a survivor of that attack, you can say that I AM biased and discount my opinions. I have sought the truth for 22 years about what happened that day, and afterward, the Court of Inquiry, my government's cover up to this day and members of Congress refusal to properly investigate the attack. Israel's influence over this country's foreign and domestic policy through groups like AIPAC and the ADL have effectively blocked any attempt to get to the truth. You can whine about conspiracy theory and anti Semitism all you want. I AM a supporter of Israel, but the deliberate attack on the Liberty IS a black mark on the history of this great nation. 

Any sixth grader doing research can easily debunk nearly every point Cristol makes. Were this a novel, it still wouldn't be a good read. Truthful, it is NOT. 

J.T. Halbardier 

  Electronics Technician 

  USS Liberty Survivor 

1.0 out of 5 stars Cristol is the Most Quoted Israeli Apologist..., January 21, 2008

By William A. Heimiller (Tucson, AZ) - See all my reviews

(REAL NAME) 

  

This review is from: The Liberty Incident: The 1967 Attack on the U.S. Navy Spy Ship (Hardcover)

Even if you want to believe it to be an accident, you can do better than this book. Cristol created this book based on his doctoral dissertation, which was manufactured after (and some estimate to obfuscate and diffuse) Dr. John Borne's initial doctoral dissertation on the Liberty assault which came to the conclusion Israel knew it was a US ship before they attacked. 

You don't even need to open the book to know what's inside!...let's take a look at the front cover photo... 

The photo, claimed in the book to be provided to Cristol by the Israeli Air Force, as a gun camera photo, shows the USS Liberty flying no flag as it is attacked, with even a large splash of munition next to it. This of course reinforces Israel's claim there was no flag flying during the attack, which would then debunk the survivors' claim they had an American flag flying(and put up an even larger US flag after the first was shot down!). 

-It turns out, according to a photo analysis done for the Liberty survivors' website, this "is in fact a doctored view of the ship just as she tied up at the pier at Little Creek, Virginia, in July, 1967, upon her return from repairs in Malta." The photo evidence is too much to list but here is some of it: All the vectors and even people on the ship correspond to the Little Creek dock photo. The smoke was apparently falsified - there is no smoke or fire damage in corresponding areas of the ship, in photos taken immediately after the attack. The displacement(how deep in the water the ship sets due to weight) of the Liberty during the actual attack was much greater than the Cristol image depicted, but corresponded perfectly with the Little Creek photo (after the ship was offloaded). The munition splash apparently was added to cover a tug boat that occluded a small part of the front side of the Liberty. A photo of a real wake created by the Liberty does not correspond to what was apparently a post photo wake added to the photo of the stationary Liberty. Etcetera, etcetera. Of course, the fact that there is no flag in Cristol's cover picture corresponds to the fact it is customary to take down the flag once you get into port, as the real Little Creek photo shows. So there you have it, no need to even open this book. Sorry to say, the photo was presented as evidence in a Thames television presentation before a proper analysis and debunking was done. 

This is the second book(the other is the unrelated "Hitler's Pope" by Cornwell) I've reviewed where a photo was presented as evidence, but was apparently otherwise. 

If you are an Israeli apologist and want to give a better try than Cristol's book, it's not hard. But you should at least go to the survivors' website and get firsthand information so you don't look as foolish as Cristol. Now that Cristol is being dismissed, Michael Oren is the next big hope for Israeli apologists concerning Liberty. This assault is so dangerous to Israel's reputation that apologists consistently offer terminology that attempts to stop discussion on the subject rather than address concerns, such as the title of Michael Oren's writing's "USS Liberty: Case Closed". The process is consistent, first the apologist (Oren/Cristol/whoever) offers what they claim is a thorough discussion-ending report(in Oren's case even titling it as such), then the apologist goes on with a typical limited and contextually false account, then right on queue, the apologist is soon after applauded for such a "conclusive", "thorough", "definitive" account. Then eventually the apologist is dismissed by those on the other side as false after having his material reviewed, such as Cristol eventually was. Then another apologist takes over the reigns as 'lead USS Liberty reference' for the apologists, conveniently forgetting they were just supporting the last guy who who offered false claims. To some, it might seem strange Oren was given the top prize at the LA book fair for what was a rehashing of the 1967 Israeli six day war in his book "Six Days of War". What Oren did conveniently offer in his newly awarded book, just as Crystol conveniently offered, was, once again, "new evidence" that the attack on the Liberty was accidental. Of course, "Body of Secrets" author James Bamford eventually took great exception to Oren's selective Liberty account, and offers insight into Oren's personal history and his close working connections to those who apparently were connected to Israeli war crimes that the Liberty would have monitored, and that, as Bamford suggests, would have been reason to snuff out the Liberty's surveillance. 

The real story, and the amazing and intriguing evidence that is now coming out is mostly coming from NSA sources. The Anti-Defamation League primarily references Cristol and NSA transcripts released in 1999(published online in 2003) of helicopter pilots sent to the Liberty after the attack. Of course, the ADL pointing to the helicopter transmissions is misleading, as the unreleased plane and boat transmissions(those taking part in the attacks) are the relevant ones. Of course the ADL doesn't address Cristol's basic problems, such as that silly cover photo passed off as an Israeli gun camera photo. Some amazing admissions have occured just recently(after 2000). There is still apparently a key NSA record of the attack, taken from a an NSA spyplane in the area of the attack, that is being withheld. 

"Of four former NSA/CIA seniors with inside knowledge, none was aware of any agency official who dissented from the position that the attack was deliberate." - Naval Institute Proceedings 

"That the attack was deliberate "just wasn't a disputed issue" within the National Security Agency" - former NSA director William Odom, 3 March 2003 interview for Naval Institute Proceedings 

"...the board of inquiry (concluded) that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty." 

-- CIA Director Richard Helms 

"I can tell you for an absolute certainty (from intercepted communications) that the Israelis knew they were attacking an American ship."-- NSA Deputy Director Oliver Kirby 

Write a letter to your Congressman and sign the Liberty petition, if you want the NSA record released!!

And a perspective from Jim Ennes a USS Liberty survivor:

Twenty-six years have passed since that clear day on June 8, 1967 when Israel attacked the USS Liberty with aircraft and torpedo boats, killing 34 young men and wounding 171. The attack in international waters followed over nine hours of close surveillance. Israeli pilots circled the ship at low level 13 times on eight different occasions before attacking. Radio operators in Spain, Lebanon, Germany and aboard the ship itself all heard the pilots reporting to their headquarters that this was an American ship. They attacked anyway. And when the ship failed to sink, the Israeli government concocted an elaborate story to cover the crime.

There is no question that this attack on a U.S. Navy ship was deliberate. This was a coordinated effort involving air, sea, headquarters and commando forces attacking over a long period. It was not the "few rounds of misdirected fire" that Israel would have the world believe. Worse, the Israeli excuse is a gross and detailed fabrication that disagrees entirely with the eyewitness recollections of survivors. Key American leaders call the attack deliberate. More important, eyewitness participants from the Israeli side have told survivors that they knew they were attacking an American ship.

Israeli Pilot Speaks Up

Fifteen years after the attack, an Israeli pilot approached Liberty survivors and then held extensive interviews with former Congressman Paul N. (Pete) McCloskey about his role. According to this senior Israeli lead pilot, he recognized the Liberty as American immediately, so informed his headquarters, and was told to ignore the American flag and continue his attack. He refused to do so and returned to base, where he was arrested.

Later, a dual-citizen Israeli major told survivors that he was in an Israeli war room where he heard that pilot's radio report. The attacking pilots and everyone in the Israeli war room knew that they were attacking an American ship, the major said. He recanted the statement only after he received threatening phone calls from Israel.

The pilot's protests also were heard by radio monitors in the U.S. Embassy in Lebanon. Then-U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon Dwight Porter has confirmed this. Porter told his story to syndicated columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak and offered to submit to further questioning by authorities. Unfortunately, no one in the U.S. government has any interest in hearing these first-person accounts of Israeli treachery.

Key members of the Lyndon Johnson administration have long agreed that this attack was no accident. Perhaps most outspoken is former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Thomas Moorer. "I can never accept the claim that this was a mistaken attack," he insists.

Former Secretary of State Dean Rusk is equally outspoken, calling the attack deliberate in press and radio interviews. Similarly strong language comes from top leaders of the Central Intelligence Agency, National Security Agency (some of whose personnel were among the victims), National Security Council, and from presidential advisers such as Clark Clifford, Joseph Califano and Lucius Battle.

A top-secret analysis of Israel's excuse conducted by the Department of State found Israel's story to be untrue. Yet Israel and its defenders continue to stand by their claim that the attack was a "tragic accident" in which Israel mistook the most modern electronic surveillance vessel in the world for a rusted-out 40-year-old Egyptian horse transport.

Despite the evidence, no U.S. administration has ever found the courage to ever found the courage to defy the Israeli lobby by publicly demanding a proper accounting from Israel.

How Does Congress React to These Complaints?

Most members of Congress respond to inquiries about the Liberty with seemingly sympathetic promises to "investigate." Weeks or months later they write again to report their "findings": "The Navy investigated in 1967 and found no evidence that the attack was deliberate," they say." Israel apologized, calling the attack a tragic case of misidentification, and paid damages for loss of life, injuries and property damage. The matter is closed.

The fact is, however, that the Navy's "investigation" examined only the quality of the crew's training, the adequacy of communications and the performance of the crew under fire. The Navy was forbidden to examine Israeli culpability and Navy investigators refused to allow testimony showing that the attack was deliberate or that Israel's excuse was untrue.

The Navy blocked all testimony about Israeli actions.

Instead of determining whether the attack was deliberate, the Navy blocked all testimony about Israeli actions. No survivor was permitted to describe the close in machine-gun fire that continued for 40 minutes after Israel claims all firing stopped. No survivor was allowed to talk about the life rafts the Israeli torpedo men machine-gunned in the water. No survivor was permitted to challenge defects and fabrications in Israel's story. Even my eyewitness testimony as officer-of-the deck was withheld from the official record. No evidence of Israeli culpability was "found" because no such testimony was allowed. To survivors, this was not an investigation. It was a cover-up.

Congress Goes Through the Motions

Kennedy asked no questions, conducted no interviews, and showed no curiosity about the many discrepancies in Israel's story. Then Kennedy reported his "findings" in a letter to survivors. Carefully avoiding the circumstances of the attack, Kennedy's letter deplored the "tragic circumstances and loss of life" and declared that the facts about the Liberty must be uncovered "to the maximum extent humanly possible."

Occasionally a member of Congress will seem to probe a bit deeper, as Ted Kennedy once did. In response to requests, Kennedy asked Liberty survivors and others for input,which his staff then "studied" for more than a year.

That letter, however, represented Kennedy's maximum effort. Appeals to Kennedy for some real help go unanswered.

The Quest Goes On

The best forum in the '90s for this story and related stories of the Middle East may well be electronic mail, the complex of computer and electronic mail systems that now span the globe.

For instance, the USS Liberty and theMiddle East are hot topics in the "Prodigy interactive computer service" run by Sears and IBM. With over 2 million members, Prodigy's "Israel" forums guarantee some lively and often bitter debates.

Unfortunately, the playing field often seems uneven. The cover-up side heavily outnumbers its critics, and is allowed tactics rarely tolerated from others. Criticism of Israeli policies is seen as "attacks on the Jewish homeland." Pro-Israel debaters charge that Israel's critics are "disciples of hate," and "pathological haters of Israel and all things Jewish."

The language gets worse. Prodigy allows Israel's critics to be called "sodomists," and "derriere bussing anti-Semites." The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, which prints an update on progress toward a congressional investigation every year on the June anniversary of the tragedy, comes in for special vitriol. The magazine is described almost daily as I a hate rag." Yet Prodigy's censors often reject even mild and factual rebuttals of such charges as "insulting."

Despite a near media blackout, and such invective directed at publications that defy it, Americans, do continue to support the USS Liberty and its survivors' association. Late last year the Veterans of Foreign Wars Post 560 in Zimmerman, Minnesota, raised over $12,000 to create a rest stop and picnic area on donated land near a major highway as a memorial to the men who died on the Liberty. This makes the 29th public memorial to the USSLiberty.

The memorial area and an inscribed granite stone were appropriately dedicated in a ceremony attended by survivors, VFW members, Mayor Randy Hanson, and Liberty's heroic Congressional Medal of Honor-winning skipper, Captain William McGonagle, among others.

Inspired by community support, members of Post 560 are now telling the USS Liberty story to every VFW post in Minnesota. Member Stan Wuolle tells us that after they cover all of Minnesota, they will start on Wisconsin and the Dakotas.

In New York, meanwhile, Korean War veteran John Everts learned about the attack just last year and was similarly moved. Everts inspired two Korean vets groups in which he is active, "The Chosin Few" and "The Korean War Veterans" Kivlehan Chapter, to write more than 100 letters to Congress seeking the investigation that survivors mill are denied.

To date, no member of Congress has risked re-election chances by agreeing publicly to Evert's request. No one really expected that to happen. But efforts like these help members of Congress and the American public remember that Israel attacked the USS Liberty, deliberately and then lied about it. Sooner or later, Americans will insist that their government and their representatives in Congress find out why.

James Ennes retired from the Navy in 1978 as a lieutenant commander after 27 years of enlisted and commissioned service. He was a lieutenant on the bridge of the 

USS Libertyon the day of the attack. His book on the subject, Assault on the Liberty (Random House, 1980), is a "Notable Naval Book" selection of the U. S. Naval Institute and was "editors' choice" when reviewed in The Washington Post. Copies of the book are available from theAmerican Educational Trust, publisher of this magazine, at $25.00 each.

SIDEBAR

About James Ennes’ Assault on the Liberty

"I've never read a more graphic depiction of war and its effects at sea ... an insider's book by an honest participant."

—Author Seymour Hersh

"If this book received more attention, U.S. policies in the Middle East might be better balanced and more successful."

—Former U.S. Senator Adlai E. Stevenson, Jr.

"Searing heat and terrible noise came suddenly from everywhere. Heat came first, and it was heat—not cannon fire—that Caused me to turn away. An explosion tossed our gunners high in the air-spinning, broken, like rag dolls. We were being pounded by a deadly barrage of aircraft cannon and rocket fire.

"A solid blanket of force threw me against A railing. My arm held me up while the attacker passed overhead, followed by a loud swoosh, then silence. I seemed to be the only one left standing as the jet disappeared astern of us. Around me, scattered about carelessly, men squirmed helplessly, like wounded animals-wide-eyed, terrified, not understanding what had happened."

—From Assault on the Liberty:

-------------------------9th GROUP OF RESPONSES----------

8 September

MILINET: 9th Resp "USS Liberty (AGTR-5)"

   ====================

Two things strike me as being horse shit. First, that the Israelis didn’t know the Liberty was a U.S. Navy ship. This defies common sense, although I could understand a fast mover not seeing the America flag on the first pass depending on the initial engagement range but not multiple attacks. It was stated that Israeli jets made 13 low passes before commencing the attack and would have identified the ship as U.S. Navy. Israel was at war and perhaps the Captain should have displaced to safer waters. Second, the continued whining that Congress or the President or the State Department didn’t have the balls to ‘stand up to the Israeli lobby’. This is a convenient argument that fits into the narrow minded view of those with an ax to grind or worse, those with anti-Semitic views or beliefs.

Boiled down to the basic, you had what was described as the most sophisticated spy ship in the world off the coast of Israel during a war. The real question in mind is whether the Liberty had comm with Egypt, perhaps as an extension of our usual State Department policy of appeasement. Knowing the Israeli mindset, if they thought Egypt was receiving advanced warning of impending launches, this would have been all the justification required to eliminate this perceived threat.

Spanky Hammond

LtCol  USMCR (Ret)

--------------------ANOTHER RESPONSE-------

This extraordinary Milinet dialog has reinforced my belief going into it that this operation was a deliberate action on the part of the Israelis to sink the Liberty.  Of that I have no doubts.  What still remains very murky to me is what was the Liberty doing that was of seen by the Israelis as such a threat to their operations as to necessitate such an high risk attack. 

No credible evidence shows up in the dialog  that there was anyone on board that could speak Hebrew the operational language of the IAF.  One alleged Hebrew speaker supposedly hidden in the bowels of the ship turns out to be not on any ship's roster.  Did anyone including the capt know him and has the issue of the Hebrew language gap ever been addressed with the officers and comm techies aboard the Liberty?  What comm links were being utilized to send what kind of information to Egypt or Syria and who in the Liberty comm section  was involved in it?    

I can't find anything persuasive in all of this that confirms we were routing any operational comm traffic direct to Egypt or Syria.  Surely the capt and the comm officer would have to know and I don't believe such an arrangement existed  as Lyndon Johnson would never put himself in a situation where credible evidence might emerge that he played such a high risk game with our most important ally in the ME.  My current hypothesis is the Israelis knew the Russians were also tracking the Liberty and its communications and they feared the Russians would pass on  the intercepts and you can be relatively certain the Russians had Hebrew speakers.  So my final question remains: what specific communications intercept "products" were the Israelis so concerned about that could precipitate such an extraordinary hostile act against its most important ally?  

PatG  

------------------10th GROUP OF RESPONSES-------

09 September

MILINET: 10th Resp "USS Liberty (AGTR-5)"

============

Major - seems to me unlikely that the Liberty was sending traffic in the clear or that the Soviets had broken code on such a sophisticated vessel.  Which leaves us with: 1.  the attack was a mistake, 2. They don't like americans, want to intimidate the American military and or gov. 3. The Liberty was somehow engaged in something so threatening that the Israelis felt they had no choice. The risk of losing U.S. support to Israel is just too catastrophic (who else will help them - the europeans?)  for me to believe anything else. 1 and 2 are unbelievable to me.

 

If they did it on purpose, why, it had to be life threatening.  Full disclosure I am one of those Israel appologists and think the whole mid-east would solve itself if the Arabs would just stop killing the Jews.  Sabra and Shantilla (spelling) were done by Phallangist Christians and if you don't know what the PLO did to them and others in Lebananon, check it out.  Also check out Maalot (spelling) where school children were killed.

The jihadis had a saying once upon a time, first the saturday people, then the sunday people.  Like them or not, it might make sense to keep Israel around.

Joe

--------------ANOTHER RESPONSE-----

As stated before; rare is the Site where such complex issues are discussed in such detail, with such expertise.

Case in point; "No credible evidence shows up in the dialog that there was anyone on board that could speak Hebrew the operational language of the IAF." - Pat G.

As further stated by Pat G., "My current hypothesis is the Israelis knew the Russians were also tracking the Liberty and its communications and they feared the Russians would pass on the intercepts and you can be relatively certain the Russians had Hebrew speakers."

If the Liberty was passing Israeli Military traffic to Egypt or Syria, it's a good bet that neither of those States would have required Hebrew translation services from the USN or the  Soviet (Russian) Navy (may It Rest In Peace)..

 M. McKeever, MSgt USMC (Ret)

-------------END RECAP--------

HITS: